Subscribe Feed (RSS)Abortion and Your Vote
August 27th, 2008 by Bryan Allain | Filed under faith, life.If you're new here, you may want to subscribe to my RSS feed. Thanks for visiting!
Above is the video of Don Miller’s prayer at the DNC on Monday night.
As expected, Don is catching a good bit of flak from evangelicals for appearing at a Democratic event. He’s also catching flak for saying that he will vote for Obama, with most of the flak stemming from Obama’s stance on abortion.
I am really trying to think through and work through this issue and I would appreciate the help of anyone who reads this blog.
Personally, I hate abortion. The thought of it makes me angry, and I’m not embellishing. But I also realize that only a few decisions of the thousands a president makes in his term have any direct or indirect impact on abortion. Additionally, the chances of Roe V Wade being repealed are very slim. So based on that, here’s my question(s) to you, choose any to answer that apply:
1. Regardless of your personal stance on abortion, what role does the issue play in determining your vote? Is it a very small factor, one of a few big issues you consider, your biggest factor, the Only factor you consider?
2. If you vote Republican based primarily on the abortion issue, how do you justify electing someone to do a job based on one issue that represents less than 1% of what that job entails?
3. If you knew for an absolute fact that the president we were going to elect would make NO decisions in the next 4 years that affected abortion at all, would his/her stance on abortion still factor in to your decision on who to vote for?
I’m looking for honest answers from y’all because I am personally working through this issue. If you take the time to answer, thanks in advance.
here’s some additional thoughts I posted a few weeks after posting this thread.
Tags: Abortion, DNC, Donald Miller, Vote
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Wow, this is a tough one, Bryan. I’m wrestling with the same things.
1. I’d say it is one of a few big issues I consider. It’s not THE ONE ISSUE, but neither is it a non-issue.
2. See, I’m not sure that your characterization of abortion as “less than 1% of what the job entails” is quite fair. I agree, mostly… but the next president will most likely get to appoint two Supreme Court justices… and those appointments will affect the country more than pretty much anything else he will do in his term.
3. At that point I don’t think it’d affect my vote much. Obama’s views might give me pause, and I might seriously disagree with him, but hey, there’s stuff I disagree with McCain about, too.
This election is the toughest call for me of any I’ve voted in. I still haven’t decided.
Thanks Chris.
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Yeah, i think you’re right about the Supreme Court Justice thing as far as Question #2 goes.
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I appreciate your answers.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with Chris (especially on the upcoming supreme court choices). Also, while I’m no fan of Bush… apparently the abortion rate has gone down under his administration.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18183734
and I wouldn’t (and won’t this year) vote republican based on this one issue. I’ve found a third party candidate that I agree with on this issue and that aligns more with my principles on other issues.
Abortion is one of the key issues for me but so is the economy, foreign policy and other social issues. While I wouldn’t vote for Obama because of his very pro-choice stance (as well as other issues), I won’t vote for Mccain simply because he’s pro-life, there are far too many other things I don’t agree with him on.
It’s no secret to any of my Facebook friends that I’m an Obama supporter. Like you, I hate abortion. But also like you, I suspect that there is little a president can/will do about it. We’ve had several “pro-life” presidents since Roe v. Wade, and yet we’re hardly any closer to an end to legalized abortion.
I know everyone talks about the supreme court appointments, but I think a judicial overthrow of Roe v. Wade would be a disaster for our country, perhaps even leading to revolution. I think the only solution to abortion that won’t rip the country to shreds would be to change the hearts and minds of the electorate and eventually get legislation passed. But that will take time, much time.
Bottom line: abortion is an important issue, but for a presidential election, other social issues, and the war in Iraq, are taking much more precedence for me.
Thanks Joe and Mark. Very interesting thoughts.
Joe, I’d be very interested in hearing about this third party candidate.
Mark, I’ve never thought before about the repercussions of overthrowing Roe V. Wade. Very interesting.
Thanks again guys.
1) I think that the sanctity of human life is not a small issue. If a person is willing to support the issue of taking innocent life, what does that state about their character and integrity? It’s a big deal. For me it is a big factor, not the only, but substantial.
2) I was going to bring up the Supreme Court argument as well…1% of the job has entailed the loss of millions of lives. More to the point when Rick Warren asked Obama when life began and he answered with “That is above my pay rate,” that pretty much sealed the deal for me! Talk about pandering…The President will appoint judges, sign bills into law, veto, yet this guy isn’t qualified to make the decision when life begins. He shouldn’t be qualified to decide when it ends either.
3) It would definitely affect my decision. It is about worldviews. Which candidate lines up with your worldviews the best? If they are pro-abortion than they do not value life and when push comes to shove, will they really, honestly, value my life?
good thoughts Buddy.
I agree that the “above my pay rate” comment was weak. I don’t know, just didn’t sit well with me.
In terms of worldview, I definitely understand that argument. And i think I agree with it for the most part.
I do think though that we can’t say a pro-choice candidate “does not value life”. Life is from conception to 72.5 years. There’s a lot more that goes into valuing life, even if these folks think that life does not begin until the third trimester or whatever bunk they’ve convinced themselves of. I just think that’s too broad a brush stroke.
Buddy, do you feel like Republican candidates value your life (and i mean you, specifically) more than Democrats do? (and again, this isnt a sarcastic question, I really want to know)
Thanks for sharing Buddy, I really appreciate it.
Hey Bryan,
I’m not addressing your particular points. I hope that isn’t held against me.
I have often wondered about this issue. I mainly wonder how much we should be concerned about the states dealings with this issue.
The Church’s responsibility in this issue should be within the Church. We cannot impose a morality and a worldview that values life IN ALL FORMS upon a culture who is totally unable to have it apart from the sovereign and divine working of God. We cannot expect the world to have the same conscience we do on the matter. when we encounter abortion, homosexuality, greed, or other sins in the culture our first and foremost goal should be conversion. I have seen firsthand that the rest will work itself out.
However the modern Church seems to think that arguing against a brick wall will get them something other than a lost voice and funny looks
The Holy Spirit is the only one who can change hearts and minds on issues such as these.
With this in mind, an abortion stance, while important to me, has faded from the place it once held in my list of priorities when picking a presidential candidate. The most pro-choice candidate in the world cannot change my mandate and the Church’s mandate on this issue. It is not our job as Christians to be the morality police to a worlds that cannot and will not hold to our moral standards.
I feel like I’ve rambled and been totally unhelpful. If so, I apologize
MT
1.) A candidates views on abortion are equal to his views on the death penalty and propensity to go or sustain war. All of those factor bring death, and if I am pro-life, then I want to minimize death.
While it is easy to mock Obama’s “above my pay rate” comment, you cannot mock his statement that he wants to reduce abortions, and that to do that, we need to assist women, who are likely to have abortions, in carrying their baby full-term and assisting in adoption services. If the government is going to pay for abortions, then as pro-life taxpayers, we should insist on government services that assist in giving pre-natal health care and post-delivery adoption services to women. And of course education services to prevent unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
2.) No President has any impact on Row v. Wade and no Supreme Court nominee has an impact either. The judges cannot just take up the case again because they want to. It has to go through the chain of the courts by a partner looking to change the law. Through that cycle, precedents have to be challenged, and valid reasons for appeal have to be heard and accepted by higher courts in order for a case to overturn Roe v. Wade to make it to the Supreme Court.
We need to stop kidding ourselves that we’ll ever see Roe v. Wade overturned in this country. Even if the Supreme Court overturns it, it is still any state’s right to have it legal in their state, and thus we’ll have any X number of states making it legal there.
I agree that the abortion issue is less than 1% of a president’s responsibilities. The economy, health care, social security, & foreign affairs are by far 95% of the president’s concern right now.
3.) Because abortion is only 1/3 of the pro-life view I listed above, it is not likely to affect my vote based on that hypothetical absolute fact. They have to meet the standards for the other issues, too. So if one is 2 for 3 (pro-choice) and the other is 1 for 3 (pro-life) and the difference is abortion, and they were equal on all other points, I’m voting for the 2 for 3 pro-choice candidate.
But as it stands now, I have absolutely no idea who I am going to end up voting for.
Hey Bryan,
I have no idea how a person can be pro-life and value life at the same time…sounds like a conflict of interests.
To answer your question. I think that your post back in July with Derek’s song “Saviour on Capital Hill” sums it all up. I do not think that any politician has my best interests in mind. I think that the candidates are puppets for their parties and those parties only value what allow them to have control. My life??? Not sure that is on either parties priority list..
1. The issue of abortion is a very big one for me. There are other important things that I think about, but I think it is the number 1 social justice issue in America today because it involves innocent people being killed. Injustices in labor, healthcare, etc. are bad things that we need to address but very few people are being murdered because of them. As Roberto Rivera said,, “Being alive, even if you’re hungry and have a nuke pointed at your head, is infinitely preferable to being killed in utero.” Thus, I think that the two biggest reasons why it’s so important are: (a) The longer it goes on, the more innocent people die and (b) If a candidate can’t grasp how important that is, I can’t really take his or her commitment to social justice seriously.
2. The Supreme Court justice issue was mentioned, but there’s also the Mexico City policy and really, the President helps to set the tone for a lot of things. This is a good reason not to make abortion the only issue in considering a Presidential candidate, though.
3. Yes, because of what I said above: if you don’t get that abortion is morally reprehensible (not just icky or bad) and want it to cease except when absolutely necessary (not just reduce it), then I question your ability to genuinely lead on any other issue regarding social justice. It would be like dating a man who was wonderful and perfect in every possible way except that he punched his ex-girlfriends whenever they did something wrong. Something just isn’t right there.
All that said (and those were good questions, Bryan), I agree with Mark that abortion will probably end in this country as the hearts and minds of people will change over time and then legislation will be passed (Lord willing.) But that doesn’t mean that we should give up the legislative fight because that will also probably come slowly, step-by-step. Overturning Roe v. Wade would be a huge step, because x number of states would keep abortion legal but 50-x number of states would ban it and that would save a lot of lives. William Wilberforce introduced bills every year trying to get slavery banned and they usually failed. But he kept up the fight, and we have to keep up the fight, too, because there are innocent lives at stake.
Would Obama’s policies reduce abortions in America? Hopefully yes, and I’m glad that he is at least making that effort. I think that conservatives need to be supporting the kinds of measures he’s proposing. Personally, I disagree with Obama’s economic and foreign policy stances so the decision not to vote for him won’t be too hard (I’m not thrilled about McCain and don’t know if I’ll vote for him, either.) I agree that McCain is probably playing up the pro-life thing now, but I feel like if Democrats want to woo jaded sort-of-conservatives like me then they’ll have to do better on abortion. It’s such a crucial social justice issue, and if you miss that then you’ve missed the big E on the eye chart.
I really struggle with this issue too. Something John Piper wrote a while back about one-issue politics has been my biggest help so far. Here’s the link.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1995/1524_OneIssue_Politics_OneIssue_Marriage_and_the_Humane_Society/
I don’t make my vote based on abortion. I’m a student of political history, and I don’t see the situation changing anytime in the next two or three generations, if at all. Perhaps it will, but I honestly don’t expect it—and, just as well, I don’t expect that packing the Supreme Court with strict constructionists who hate abortion will give them reason to overturn Roe. I just don’t. Admittedly, abortion is a big issue to be wrong about, but the issue is far more about a society that thinks that killing the unborn is okay than with whether the President does or not.
1.) Abortion is one of many issues I consider when choosing a candidate. It is not the main issue though, it’s one of a few big, economy, health care, the war, social security.
2.)I believe that if someone does vote entirely for a Republican candidate solely based on the issue of abortion that the only way to justify that would be that the person believes the candidate’s moral compass would fall over to other issues as well.
3.)Sadly, yes it would. If I knew for a fact that no bill would be passed or no judge would be appointed, I would say that that issue would drastically change how we look at candidates.
Tim - good thoughts, thanks.
Nate - I dont think you have to qualify your answer to #3 with “sadly”. If that’s what you believe, then go with it. I know for many abortion is a core issue which reveals much about someone’s heart. I understand that. I’m just not sure if I’m there.
Matt - I appreciate you sharing all that. good food for thought.
1. It’s a big deal for me, but not necessarily because it’s killing the unborn. As Buddy said above (comment #6), it’s about the sanctity of human life.
2. A more liberal approach with something like the right to life is going to go along with a more liberal stance on other issues. I don’t make my final decision based solely on the abortion issue, but if you were to remove the abortion issue completely, the candidates who I would support (based on the remaining issues) are typically those that are against abortion.
3. Yes.
[...] thoughts. + Noted political blogger Andrew Sullivan weighed in. + Don’s prayer launched some good discussion on abortion and voting over at my personal blog. + Some bloggers are already linking Sarah Palin’s politics to Don’s [...]
I’m a pro-life Democrat because I believe it’s Christian to feed the hungry, care for the “least among us,” etc. The only way to improve my party is from within, not go to the GOP and its big-business interests.
So I’ll vote for Obama.
Roe v Wade won’t be overturned no matter who is President or on the Supreme Court: too difficult legally. Even if reversed, doctors would just return to “therapeutic D&C’s” (which are safe).
It was Nixon who appointed Justice Blackmun, crucial in deciding in favor of Roe v Wade. But since then, some (not all) Republicans talk about being pro-life… while seeming to forget about women and families as soon as the babies are born.
Not true that if a candidate is pro-abortion, he/she doesn’t care about life: those candidates are mistaken in solving the problems of women in crisis pregnancies. Those candidates need information about better options for women, but they really don’t see that they are killing anyone.
NARAL and Planned Parenthood are horribly effective in “pro-choice” propaganda in the Democratic Party, but Halliburton, Monsanto, etc. are too influential for “free enterprise” in the Republican Party. It’s up to voters to decide who best represents their ideal values, then work to keep that party on a reasonable road.
Turns out I’m a 1-issue voter … when it comes to abortion, I have a strong sense of what’s right and what’s wrong … for most other issues, I’m much less clear … a close friend of mine is a big believer in the Constitution Party … and what I get from that is that I “should” spend more effort looking at “3rd Party” alternatives … but that seems even more unlikely to yield fruit than does voting for a Republican candidate because he and his party are anti-abortion.
I know abortion is not a simple issue … I really respect, but do *not* agree with, Don’s presentation of an alternative viewpoint (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIE5HwW3T_o) … but people break all laws, so are all of our laws “idealistic”? They seem to me to be statements of what we think is right versus what we think is wrong. What I have no clarity on is what the penalty / punishment would/should be … I sure don’t want it to be “hateful” … the “natural consequence” seems pretty steep as it is …
I know for sure of one abortion that would not have happened had abortion been illegal … perhaps it wouldn’t have happened if all the things Don is suggesting would happen also … so I’m happy to support doing those things also … it’s gonna take a lot to rid the world of abortion …
Thanks for asking the questions … I think I answered #1 and #2 … and #3 seems pointless …
I have to get going, so I will make it quick, but after reading through this, I have noticed that alot of people have stated that the decission to place “two conservative” justices in the supreme court won’t change things. I agree. I don’t believe that roe vs. wade will ever be overturned (to my dismay) however, I want to bring attention to the fact that a left-wing candidate such as Mr. Obama could elect two liberals, or even worse, left-wings (there is a difference) to the supreme court, enabling the definition of abortion to be broadened! Mr. Obama has made no secret of the fact that he is opposed to bans on late term abortions. This is something our nation can not afford to do. It is straight out murder. Just something to think about…your thoughts?
I really don’t expect the Supremes to legislate any further on the issue.
Bryan - Greetings! I just stumbled across your blog while trying to do a little research on Donald Miller. I share a few of the descriptives in your title banner - Christian, husband, father, engineer, and (recovering) sports fan. I’d like to throw in my 2 cents on your 3 questions.
#1 A candidate’s stance on abortion is the biggest issue I consider, especially when it comes to choosing a president (the highest political office in the land). Abortion is a terrible evil, scripture tells us God abhors it, and the issue has the potential to split and divide this nation to the same degree, if not worse than, the issue of slavery did 140-160 years ago. I definitely consider this a “litmus test” of the worldview and character of the candidate. I have other big issues for all office-seekers, such as limiting government to doing only what our Constitution authorizes it to do, school choice, support for free markets, etc., but an unwavering committment to halt the barbaric infantacide of 45 million of the most defenseless and innocent members of the human race is my #1 issue.
#2 I disagree with your claim that the issue of abortion represents only 1% of what the job entails. For the office of president, the office holder has a tremendous influence on this issue. The president has a huge soapbox, and can influence policy, trends and even morality. We must not forget that it is the president who chooses the life-time appointments to the Supreme Court. To the millions of unborn babies who have already been slaughtered, and the millions more that will be slaughtered if we don’t remove its legal sanction, this is not a 1% issue - it is a life or death issue. I might add that the souls of these babies that never even got the chance to breathe their first breath, are numbered with the saints in heaven who cry out for justice at the spilling of their blood.
#3 It’s not realistic to think a president could ever go 4 years without having to make a decision affecting abortion. But even if that were to occur, a candidate’s position on abortion would definitely still affect my vote and support. Our Declaration of Independence claims that we are all CREATED equal and endowed by our CREATOR with inalienable rights of LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The taking of innocent life through the heinous act of abortion is a stark contradiction to the self-evident truths highlighted in our nation’s founding documents, as well as the bible. Abortion-affirming candidates are therefore exhibiting wanton disregard for our nation’s founding documents and their principles and self-evident truths.
I have enjoyed the dialogue with you and the other folks who have posted on your blog. You stated that you are “working through this issue”. I pray that the Holy Spirit guides you as work through this issue. Please review the scriptures about God’s abhorance for child sacrifice, and the beautiful holiness and sanctity that God affirms to life in the womb throughout Psalm 139. I would also pray that you view some of the more graphic, but realistic videos available about what really goes on during an abortion. Neurologists now know that babies in the womb can feel excruciating pain by the 18th week. This is so much more than just a “clump of cells”, it’s a human being, made by God in His image. Sorry for the long post. May God bless you!
Jim, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic. I’ll definitely take them into consideration as I think this all through. Hope to have your input on other things as well. Thanks again!
I often debate fellow Christians on the issue of Abortion. Here are a few issues I have:
You want to outlaw abortion? Okay, how many unwanted children have you adopted? Exactly how much money have you donated to struggling and impoverished mothers raising children? Why are you not handing out contraceptives in schools and elsewhere; a PROVEN way of reducing unwanted pregnancies? Care to put your money where your mouth is?
You call yourself “pro-life” yet many so-called pro-lifers support the death penalty, or the pro-death wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and what have you done to end genocide in Darfur? Or do you just think life begins and conception and ends at birth?
You think abortion is murder? Even though God doesn’t? According to Old Testament law the penalty for causing a miscarriage is not equal to that of murdering somebody. Why do you believe this un-Biblical idea? Because the right wing extremists told you so?
We won’t see a major decline in abortions, regardless if it is legalized or not, until the church offers a better solution. I think too much emphasis is put on banning abortion (and we see how well banning something worked out with Prohibition and the War on Drugs). Not enough emphasis is places on contraceptive, adoption, financial support for struggling mothers, etc. Some of the right wing extremist Christians seem to just want to outlaw abortions and dump a few boxes of free coat hangers in the inner city and smugly walk away. To paraphrase what somebody mentioned on another blog:
We need to stop asking ourselves IF girls SHOULD get abortions, and start asking ourselves WHY women feel like they NEED abortions. We need solidarity with the struggling and broken, we need to be a community of hope the offers Christ’s love to the low and despised. We do not need to be a partisan attack group who protests the actions of the struggling and broken. We need to rethink what it means to be “pro-life” by putting the love of Jesus first in our actions.
As a Bible-believing Christian, I am PRO-LIFE. That means I am against war, against the death penalty, against discrimination, against destroying life on this planet through pollution and oil addiction, in favor of welcoming the alien, and against policies that lead to violence and poverty around the world. Life doesn’t begin at conception and end at birth.
Gentlemen. This is my first point. No women have yet commented on this blog. I love that you all can voice your opinion so freely, yet most of you really have no idea of what you speak. This infuriates me as I think on it more, almost as much as the comment that in OT law, God didn’t punish a person who inflicted a miscarriage, so He must be OK with abortion (my paraphrase, based on my inference). Check your facts, James; this punishment was given when the miscarriage was the result of unintentional harm to the mother, not when someone purposely caused harm to a pregnant woman. Next thing you know, you’ll say that the cities of refuge were God’s way of sanctioning murder.
Bryan, I’m glad that you’re thinking about this issue. I’m going to respond to some of these posts above and not your 3 questions, though. I hope my responses can also bring to mind other thoughts for you to consider as you make your decision.
James, again, you are so out of line. You write, “Some of the right wing extremist Christians seem to just want to outlaw abortions and dump a few boxes of free coat hangers in the inner city and smugly walk away.” Where’s your substantiating evidence for making such a generalization? Let me share my story with you. My right-wing, extremist Christian parents adopted me, the illegitimate child of an alcoholic teenager–an unwed teenager who could not even identify which sexual partner helped to conceive me. They spent their savings on medical expenses and court costs to adopt me, and my adoption was not finalized until I was 3 years old. My adopted mother and father didn’t smugly walk away from this issue of abortion in 1980, and they don’t smugly walk away from it today. They give financial support, as well as material donations, to the local crisis pregnancy center. My mother even supports the post-abortion counseling group that the center has created. Do you do this?
What have I done when I was faced with the abortion issue? When my best friend got pregnant in college and wanted to terminate her pregnancy, I begged her to keep the baby and tell everyone that it was mine. I said that I’d support her financially and send her somewhere out of state, if she wanted, during her pregnancy. My friend still had an abortion. I called her after her appointment time to see if she had gone through with it and to check on her. The first thing that she said when she answered the phone was, “Are you still my friend?” With just that one sentence, I knew that she’d had the procedure, and I could tell that she was in physical and emotional pain as well. Every September, I think of how old my godchild would be. I see school buses and wonder if this would b the year of the first day of school. I never got to buy baby clothes, let alone school supplies. Why do I tell you all of this? Simply to let you know that I have earned the right to have a view on abortion. I’ve experienced it firsthand.
I know the fear a woman goes through, wondering how she can support a child, wondering how society will view her and her child. I know the options that are available to someone in this situation. Can any of you men say this?
And to answer another question: my conservative, right-wing, Bible-believing, independent, fundamental Baptist mother votes on one issue only, and that is indeed the issue of abortion. Is she entitled to do so? You bet your bottom dollar! A soldier who has experienced the realities of war firsthand takes into account his personal experiences on the battlefield when picking a candidate to back. In the same way, my mother takes into account her experiences with abortion and adoption when she picks a candidate.
This November I will choose a candidate whose views are most closely aligned with mine, including that of abortion. It is an issue, and I won’t ignore it. My advice, Bryan: Decide how important the question of legalized abortion is to you. Are you merely opposed to it in theory because of something that was voiced from a pulpit? Have you seen firsthand the tragedy that it creates, a lifetime of pain and a circle of un-grace and distrust? Once you decide this, you’ll be one step closer to an answer.
After you decide how important the issue of abortion is to you, you have one more choice to make. Will you merely say, “Well, no one has my views on the issue anyhow, so why should I waste my vote by giving it to someone who is closely aligned with my world views but considered ‘un-electable’?” Or will you say, “My freedom exists so that I can voice my opinion with my vote, and I’m going to do just that”?
Stephenie, thanks so much for sharing your story. I really appreciate it.